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Asked 157 months ago by
ribenguniang valid
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Hi, Is it so that a word considered as 'known' by your application will never be asked again?
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Thank you for your very precise explanations. That is about what I had understood, ... and actually what I feared. Let me explain. You see, my mother language is French, I spoke (nearly) only French during 20 years (except college, of course). Then I moved to a German speaking city, so I speak German at work and in addition Swedish at home. When my daughter was born a few years later, I often wanted to tell her the French word for this and that, so that she could learn. I was frighten to see, that I often did not (easily) remember it, especially the name of things I one needs a bit more rarely. So I know by experience that a word is rarely permanenttly memorized, especially if there is nothing in the environement you are living in, that reminds you of those somewhat complex Chinese words and their graphic representation. Couldn't it be an option, to give the user the possibility to include a few of those 'memorized words' each time he repeats his vocabulary. One could imagine for instance some settings where the user can say; include 1% of the 'memorized words' into the list of words to repeat, but at most 15 and at least 5. Something like that.... 考虑，考虑。。 |
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I worry the discussions are not easy to follow as it may have different aspects. Below I will try to summarize the methodology, which is automatically applied by the trainchinese system.
Each time a card is presented in one of the training modes, you decide if you \'know\' or \'are not sure\'. Only after passing the conditions of enough \'know\' against the \'not sure\' which is required for all of the enabled modes of a card, then the card will be considered learned once. After being learned the card will sleep, and then appear again after a certain sleeping time. A card will need to be learned in above way several times before it is considered \"fully learned\" or \"memorized\". There are two important parameters which are configurable by the users in their settings:
The setting of the basic sleeping time and the number of repetitions may depend on the personal ability to memorize Chinese, which may depend on many aspects. That is the reason we let the user configure that. People with bad memorization skills will need short sleeping times an many repetitions, and those good ad memorizing can select longer sleeping times and fewer repetitions. Once a card has slept the number of times you defined (in the settings), that card will be considered \"Fully learned\" or \"Memorized\". Such cards continue to be in your vocabulary lists, but will not appear as flashcards - unless you decide that they should be \"learned again\". Which can alwasy be selected on a card by card basis pressing one button. One note on the number of times a card sleeps: Users have the option to Wake Up sleeping cards before their due date, in that case the corresponding sleeping period will not be considered for reaching Fully memorized status, as we assume that the suer feels insecure about that card. Just as a reminder: a card will be trained according to the different Chinese training modes (that could include Reading, Oral recognition, translation and writing). Each card can have diffrent settings for this modes. |
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I (somewhat) second this proposition. I also just recently experienced the same as ribenguniang, that you never can really say \"I\'ve learned this word now and won\'t ever forget it\". Of course in the personal settings you can change it to a currently maximum of 6 repetitions of the words before they\'re considered \'learned\', with a starting interval of 5 days that would mean an interval of 160 days at last which makes it possible to sparsely add a few old words into your learning stream. But then there\'s the psychological thing with \"I want to tick these words off as learned\"which will take forever until one word gets there (5+10+20+40+80+160 days = nearly a year). I personally need this confirmation/feeling of achievement to make progress. In other systems of spaced repetition I know, once you don\'t know a word that\'s been presented to you, the learning progress gets set back to 0%, regardless how close you were to the \'nearly learned\' status. I don\'t know a perfect solution to this. Maybe change the progress statistics to show how many cards you have in each percentage level (according to your wording there), maybe other people can think of something. This is more something to get the discussion started/going... |
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Actually I would combine my proposal with klaus\' proposal. Each word (inclusive memorized words) is associated with some information like (I just guess) the number of times a user repeated that precise word (in each mode) and how many times he failed. So I think, the app can figure out how difficult it was for that user to learn a given word, and how probable it is that he will forget it again, even though it is marked as memorized. And so the app can determine if a given memorized word should be included in the bunch of words to be repeated. I also agree with heiks, if the user fails to recognize a memorized word, the cards shall not come back to 0%. Actually I would put it to the highest level, the level a cards reaches just before it goes to \'memorized\'. From that moment on it is processed normally again. I think it would be worth a try. The trainchinese team surely has a lot of statistics about the user\'s habits and leaning progress, how often memorized words are re-actived, aso. Maybe they could, in the light of this discussion, to try find out how such a feature (or similar) could be implemented. Regards |
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I\'v been thinking a little bit about this \'feature\'. |
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klaus lautet: We agree that it would be helpful if we provide an easy way to select words from the "Memorized Words" based on the likeness to have been forgotten. As many users do not like the idea of "automatic" addition of words to be learned, we think any addition of words "likely to be forgotten" needs to be initiated by the user. What we would think of is to have a way to sort all of the Memorized words based on how long a card was "memorized" already and how difficult it was to reach the "memorized" status. Once the list of memorized words has been sorted by 'likeliness to have been forgotten', then a user could just select how many of them he would like to 'review'. We are considering a differentiation between 'Review' and 'Start learning again'. A 'review' would move the card into the highest level of training, that is if during the review all modes are passed correctly the card immediately will return to 'memorized'. That compares with 'Start learning again' where cards will move to the initial stage of learning and will need to go trough all the sleeping cycles before they are 'memorized'. Obviously if the user had difficulties during the review the card will sleep and will be then trained again (and again..). The review option would only be available for cards that have been memorized.
ribenguniang lautet:
Again your solution is very pragmatic, using already available mecheanisms. |
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I've been thinking a little bit about repeating known words. I think that even the new advanced learning mode will soon be available, it is still necessary to repeat the words we know, but it shall be quite a quick repeat, nearly like a hand free mode.
I hope that you are already working at the solution you mentionned above with the sort possibility. The the user can simply say: ok I want to learn the 'top most' 1000. But than I wonder how those words are integratred into the 'daily routine'. I would not mix up the normal learning process and the repeating process. As I said before, the repeat process should be quite fast. So I would say your app shoul have three mode of operation: - a training mode: the mode we have now - a handfree mode - a repeat mode. In the hand free mode, the selected word list(s) are just read out loud (English->Chinese, Chinese-> English, according to user configuration). A pause button shall be available. The words to be reviewed in hand free mode are any list(s) of words inclusive the 'sorted list of memorized words'. In hand free mode the word statistics are not changed. The app shall remember where I stopped and continue from that point the next time I use it. The repeat mode is nearly like the hand free mode, except that - statistics are changed and a word even can be 'degraded' - there are two : 'pause' and ' I forgot' As in the hand free mode, it shall remember wehre I stopped the last time I repeated. In this way you can quickly go through all your vocab, just saying 'I forgot' now and than. As an addtional feature I would say that in this mode words should be repeated in three times: - now - in 10 days ask again - in 30 days ask again I would be please to be informed about your progress with this feature and I would be very happy to be your tester if you need a feedback during the implementation.
klaus lautet: Thank you for the detailed suggestion - we will start working on the "Review learned" functions once we have finished our homework regarding the improved algorithm and statistics functions.
klaus lautet: We have finished to implement the following functions for the re-learning or review of memorized cards: 1) Instead of Learning again a card (which would add a card to be learned trough the whole learning cycle) now it is possible to "Review" a memorized card. That will effectively put the card into the last of the cycles, so if "learned" then it will be again in the list of memorized cards. If the user is using the advanced algorithm of calculating sleep times (in Settings of this page), and the user made errors when Reviewing the learned card, then the card will not go to Memorized" but will need to be reviewed again in the problematic modes before it can become Memorized again. 2) We introduced a function that will order the memorized words according to a combination of two criteria: One is the general difficulty the user had to memorize that word the other is how long ago the word was memorized.
klaus lautet:
The order of the cards considered to be possible for review is calculated based on a series of test accounts we are using and may be necessary to be adjusted. So any comments on that are welcome. On the other hand we do not plan to add any automatic functions that would add memorized cards to the users active cards. Users who like to add memorized cards will need to go to the website and add them form there (given the functions now it is neither difficult nor time consuming). |
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